ok so im at work sweeping the floors and as usual a random thought popped in my head.

i guess i need to lead up to this question so here goes. this question is for people of religous faith and its not to start a flame war or anything. im just curious to your ideas on what i thought of.

ok so this is about abortion. now i believe religous people believe that to kill another life isnt in gods plan and is murder and such. that abortion is the early death of a innocent soul. ok what i was thinking here was this:

God is infalible (never wrong).

God knows everything youre going to do before your parents even thought about having you.

God created a "plan" for everything and everyone prior to or exactly as he created it, this plan cannot be altered due to the fact that God is always correct.

now according to this basically god knows everything youre going to do, because he made his plan accordingly and it never changes. god cannot be wrong because he is absolute and all knowing.


now onto the abortion part. if God knew exactly every choice people were going to make, and planned it that way... isnt abortion in a sense a part of his infalable plan? which means that the aborted life isnt premature but exactly right on time according to him? meaning its not detrimental to the flow of anything, and should not be tampered with by people who are trying to pass religous reasons off to sway the views?

now like i said im not trying to get people mad here, and im approaching this in the most sensitive way i can. i dont think anyones beliefs are stupid, but i do however randomly came across this enigma and when that happens i try and solve it the best way i can. if i am missing something in this please let me know, it may help me understand why people of strong faith tend to get involved in this issue and bring in their faith when from what ive seen its actually apart of the basic fundamentals of their whole belief.

--Dan Wyld

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I challenge your assertion that God knows what will occur ahead of time. He may choose to, as he is certainly capable of that....but it does not follow that he actually does so.

im just going off of what is said and written that i recall. from that, its god has a plan and that plan cannot be altered as it would prove him wrong... which he something that he can never be.

to be the beginning and end, you must know the beginning and end as well.

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OMG Xiona and religion!

Must flame!

I'll stay out of this one, as I have no strong opinions either way on the subject of abortion.

I don't think any religions is based on those two premices alone. You could put it like that, but thing are usually lot more complex and explains those questions.


I don't know if the following reasoning is the exact one for Christian, but it would probably be something similar. God might be "perfect", but he created human to be free and able to choose between good and evil. By giving them the opportunity to pick their choices, he allowed imperfection, but that imperfection is controlled to some extent. Why did He gave human a free will? Why not? Without allowing them to choose between good and evil, he wouldn't have let men the freedom to act.

Different religion probably answer the question differently, but they usually have a reason that explain mankind's imperfection in God's perfect plan.



I probably sound like a religious fanatic like that but I'm not. I don't even believe in after life and all those stuff. I was just trying to give you an answer

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that helps some. but i remember hearing that we all have free will and choice, but gods knows the outcome regardless. it just creates a contridiction for me. god gives you free will, which means you are allowed to make your own choices regardless. but god still knows everything youre going to do and therefore his plan still exsists negating free will. only creating the illusion of free will, or maybe its not an illusion... maybe you can choose for yourself, but because god knows everything your going to do regardless of your free will his plan still stays intact.

sorry haha just kinda typing what im thinking as i go along. this kind of stuff happens to me all the time, and i usually spend large amounts of time trying to figure these random thoughts out on my own. but for this one i def needed others perspective. hopefully someone very well versed in the bible or something will be able to shed some light to me.

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I'm going with Xiona on this one. Didn't you guys see "Dogma"?!? You know what happens if someone proves God wrong or finds a loophole? The world would end!

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You'll end up with one christian telling you that of course god is infallible, its written in the bible, and he must have planned that some people will choose to abort their babies. Then another will tell you that the sections of the bible pertaining to gods plan, and infallibity of that plan, are just complex metaphors that explain why Girrafes are really carnivours when we aren't looking.

If God doesn't intervene in the world since he created it, he could probably guess what will happen without influencing men's free will. If he knew what would happens and created it that way because it would happens, I guess free will is fucked up. But is it really important?

You can flip a coin, and figure what side it will land by knowing the force, the gravity, the wind resist, the point of impact, etc. However, having the ability to plan everything doesn't mean you will use it. You can still flip a coin without looking at the result. If God wanted to give Human free will, he probably has the power to do so.


I think we are looking too much into it tho. Religion are before everything a way to live with other people around us while proposing a few possibles answers to explain the mysteries that surround us. Some are more flawed than other, but you can probably find something illogical in most of them. It doesn't mean they are bad or anything, it just mean someone made a mistake somewhere while writting religious book or trying to expand the concept of one religion.


Personally, if there if a God somewhere, I really doubt he anything like we imagine. Probably a big floating energy ball who does weird noise while creating universes. Okay, maybe not, but I doubt he is a caring God who created us.

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Christianity is full of contridictions.

this was kinda what my idea was, that in his "plan" he knew this type of thing would happen and to whom it would happen, so he planned to have souls in those babies that were aborted go to their respective place (heaven) right on time, not premature like people tend to think. thereby making the point that you should outlaw abortion because it interferes with the plan that god had for those children, null and wrong.

i was wondering why this hasnt been thought of before thats kinda why i brought it up. the reason it may not have been brought up might be someone didnt think of it this way (highly unlikely) or because theres a small fact or something that im missing.

i guess i am kinda reading heavily into it, but i guess i just want to see why people of strong religous backgrounds tend to look at abortion as "pro-life" when someone like myself just looked at the basis of the religon and found a contridiction in their standings on it. i wanted to make sure i wasnt missing anything as well as get some adult input. which surprisingly im happy with the fact that noone completely told me off for just asking a question.

keep your ideas coming as i am very curious person, especially if you feel strongly about the subject from a religous standpoint. no flames just lemme know what your views are and what brings you to believe in your choice.

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God has a plan for everyone, and he does forsee the future and knows whats going to happen.

But one thing you're forgetting is the influence of evil.

Now, god has a plan for everyone but he cant force you to do something.
Think of it as 2 paths, what will happen if there is an abortion,
and what would happen if there wasnt.

God in no way is going to force someone not to have an aborton,
but the bible does say god has plans (plural) not one single plan.

If god's will is for the person to have that baby, then no abortion will occur.
In a sense that god is controlling everything (for this conversation's sake),
god will then make the stons fall into place, and everything will occur the
way he has planned.

It is gods plan to have millions of embryos/babies discarded/killed in In-Vitro Fertilization labs for the better of the human kind in Stem Cell Research.

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It isnt god's plan.

But since god knows the future, why would god plan something for
someone who wont exist.

k Confuscious. His plan but not his plan, and a future to go with it.

What is gods plan and what is not?

How do you say its not planned already with the 0-8 weeks of life/soul that these embryos have? Something that won't exist? You can say that about all human being, cus we won't exist after 80 years of life either. I cant even decide if you are a pro-lifer or a pro-choicer with the comments you've made.

Gods plan is apocalypse.
Scientific wise, apocalypse will come when earth ends in a couple of millions of years. But most likely by that time God's scientific branch of human will developed homes in other galaxies.

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the basic idea is that we know this much


>-------<


God Knows this much

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------(add about 1 million more - marks here -------<

Religion is based around faith and believing when everything seems to point to something else. Thats the point of religion. Earth is more or less just a test. God isnt doing this for himself, hes doing this for us. He knows exactly how things will turn out. That doesnt mean he wanted it to go that way or that he made it that way. most religions teach that there is much more to life than what we see on earth. Things seem confusing because we only see so little of the big picture. Would you really believe that the worlds most beautiful painting was all that amazing if you stood with your nose pressed up on the canvas?

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I find in times of questioning religion this guy really helps me out.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/fartingpreacher3.html

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Okay, lets make things clear.

From what i read, the issue was of god making a plan for something
that has a % chance of not existing without God's influence.
In other words, God has no say in weather the person he made a plan
to will exist or not. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Here's my view on things, and i surely am not trying to enforce anything.
What i was trying to say is, that God does have a plan for every person
out that that will potentially submit to him and praise him and oby by his
rules & guidelines which are ritten in the bible.
God doesnt want you to be obligated into serving him, he wants you to
recognize him for who he is, and praise him for being "it" so.
God is not going and never has/will force anyone to do anything.
(Hence the fact that lucifer was once his "left-hand" archangel)

With that in mind, with a female is pregnant it is her choice to abort
or not. God is not going to make her abort/nt abort, but her decision will
be very much influence by her beliefs and how she was brough up, it
will also depend on her way of living and current events in her life.

God know's what she is going to do eitherway, Its just up to her to make
the decision (which might not be what god planned).

Individualy of what God has planned for you, you still controll yourself.

Please Clirify to me what is the question exacly if i didnt understand it.
I'm not trying to enforce anything, just trying to help you clarify what it
is you're looking to find, i'm no bible nor data center, i have little knowledge.

Nah I was actually trying to help you clarify your confusion but it didn't work so nevermind.

I have a weird way of spreading my athiest-ism

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god gave free will seems like we can go with whatever we want
but then again "god's plans" seem like predestination

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I'm fairly sure Predestination has nothing to do with God. It was a popular belief in the 1800s which states if you could somehow understand, observe, and compute every force and reaction in the known universe, then the future could be perfectly predicted without error.

This moment was brought to you by Heinz. All 57 varieties.

Edit: no, I'm completely wrong. But there WAS something like that in the 1800s, can anyone help me out? What was it called?

Although to clear one thing up, it was interpreted that God gave man free will in so that choosing to believe God held more meaning and beauty than forcing man otherwise, and some would agrue that abortiion would be choosing not to follow or believe God's plan. While God is 'infalliable' his implementation of free will means that he has plans for everyone, but its still up to the individual to choose whether or not you'll follow those plans.

In other words. If you believe in God and his plans for you, then he might as well be infalliable, if you don't believe then God can't help you not follow his plan for you. The rest Yarr put very well.

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Name some please.

See: John Calvin.

I don't believe in God making "plans". I think the whole point is we make our own decisions in our life, and through that God will decide who deserves to go to Heaven and who does not. If he does make "plans" then that means it was planned for someone to kill another person and end up in jail. He can't plan things out and have people destined for Hell because that's not what he wants.