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 Post subject: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:07 am 
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Let's discuss "The Hunt."
I think it's pretty broken and not working the way SE intended. I guess it's inevitable that when there is a brainless, easy way to achieve something in this game, everyone and Azreall's mother will take advantage of it. This being said, I really do think it's a kick in the vagina to raiders, who have been working for weeks to gear up their jobs to be able to tackle the most advanced content in the game. I thought the hunt, when announced, would be far more challenging and exciting, but in all honesty, it's just a fate zergefest. You get the rewards for, literally, nothing. Sure, it's cool to use it to supplement and get that last piece you've been needing to complete your set, but there's something slightly fucked up when people, who haven't even beat Titan or Garuda ex have access to the same tier of items as someone who has been working through T9 for the past month.

You might argue and say "Well, I don't have time to do coil," or "I think coil's too hard," or "I don't have a static to do coil." My response is: If you aren't challenging yourself with any of this content, then why do you need this gear? Seems strange to me...

Anyhooo...that's just my two bits.

Discuss.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:09 am 
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Amen sista

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:43 am 
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Boils down to this for me.

v2.0: Casual = i90, Coil = i90, Coil Weapon = i90

v2.05 (~3 months): Casual = i90, Coil = i90, Coil Weapon = i95

v2.2: Casual = i100, Coil = i110, T9 = i115 Weapon

v2.3 (~3 months): Casual = i110, Coil = i110, T9 = i115 Weapon, Brutal Coil for Achievements, e-peen

Result? OMFG, the sky is falling, grab yo sistas, grab yo mommas, grab yo daughters, they rapin' everyone up in here.

But Ridere!!!! It's current content! And these filthy casuals are somehow demeaning my hardwork in coil by facerolling on some stupid hunt system to get equivalent gear to what I was getting 3 months ago.

Boo Hoo. Unlike v2.0, people had to wait 3 months before "demeaning" your personal victories. And heck, it could possibly even be considered a good sign in the fact that people did have to wait 3 months this time. Maybe that means that for the 3rd installment of coil, S-E will make them wait the next thing is released.

Look, I can understand the desire to want to feel better than other people and using gear as a way to show it. I'm simply saying that S-E gave you 3 months this time to feel that way instead of letting people get the i110 right off the bat.

In 2.0, some Myth purchases were BiS all the way up to 2.2. And there was only one gate to it. Myth.

In 2.2, some upgraded Soldiery items are BiS, but they fall behind two gates. The Soldiery purchase, and the oil/sand gate - of which an alternative wasn't even offered for 3 months.

And you all are flipping your shit over it? It's fucking crazy. get over it. lol

Me, I just want the pets.

And don't give me that, "it's not about e-peen" argument, because if it wasn't about epeen, why would you care at all about gear other people have.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:49 am 
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Preach on brotha! :dbanana:

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:59 am 
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i realized early on any hard work you put into content in this game to be first will end up being handed to the guy behind you for littke effort. i emphasize wity you, it doesnt feel good and something may not feel fair but its kind of necesarry due to the end content only design of the game.

in order to make the game feel like youre progressing while working off a cap is to creater higher numbers, harder content. and while some people may argue that if youre not hardcore coil goer you have no use for i100 plus gear, there is other content out there which requires it. someone may not like grinding coil but they may be all over primal extremes. someone whos not a good player may need high ilevel to balance out their personal short comings to keep up with their friends. and not to mention they keep making the "casual" content of dungeons harder with mobs with higher hp that needs high ilvl to take down smoothly.

the people whom are at the top will always have access to better gear but raising the ilvl of the people behind about 10 less than the top has always been the case. im not certain why its controversial now other than maybe people feel its too soon.

dont forget too that coil has loot still only available in coil.

as for hunts, i hope they make up something that allows more people to participate. se sometimes had a worrying strategy of, wait til people just get bored of it, response.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:06 am 
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My whole argument was about the "too soon" point. Too soon to what? It was three months *later* than it was for Coil 1 and behind two gates instead of one.

Some people just need to get over it.

May be with coil 3, people will need to wait two content patches instead of one (or would that make it the next expansion, I dunno) until they upgrade their casual gear to the level of coil gear. That seems like it'd be a step in the right direction for raiders whose work is so easily demeaned.

But still. y'all got 3 months of superiority before S-E did what they did from the very start of v2.0, and that 2nd gate, while brainless, still requires a fair amount of zerging to take care of. May not be perfect, but it seems at least like a step in the right direction for both parties.

Filthy casuals wait 3 months to catch up to token-only gear that raiders have access to. Raiders and 3 months to smuggly look down on everyone else, instead of zero months, like in v2.0.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:12 am 
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Well, while we are at this, why don't we have easier access to DOL and DOH gears? Omg I want to three star crafts, but I don't want to put in the time farming, spirit bonding, melding and blah, blah, blah.

Ridere, if you didn't quit coil, you would be the biggest crier about "The Hunt," out of all of us. Also, I'm not crying or trying to show off any epeen. I barely have any drops from coil, in fact. I just think SE should have put a little more thought into this. We get limits and caps on Coil and Soldiery, but if you zerge this fate and that fate, you can have a fully upgraded set within a week...just lame.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:26 am 
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Iolanthe wrote:
Ridere, if you didn't quit coil, you would be the biggest crier about "The Hunt," out of all of us. Also, I'm not crying or trying to show off any epeen. I barely have any drops from coil, in fact. I just think SE should have put a little more thought into this. We get limits and caps on Coil and Soldiery, but if you zerge this fate and that fate, you can have a fully upgraded set within a week...just lame.


I think you can only buy myth items with Hunt stuff. You're still gated by Soldiery. You could cap 450/450 soldiery pretty fast with hunts, I imagine, however! So you could hunt all day, get tons of seals, buy tons of sand/oil, but you'd still only have a 450/w purchasing power, as far as I'm aware.

As for your jab at me, yah I guess emotions may be running high, but I didn't care about the Echo in coil for people who had never beaten it, I also never took the "not going to help people do primals, because they aren't "earning" their Relics" stance that others in the LS took, so I think the insult is a bit of a stretch to say I'd have an issue with Hunts. I'd be more aligned with Usu and Corwin in the, "I'm gonna upgrade me some gear!" group.

Yesterday was The S-hunt spawn day, where all of the S-ranked mobs spawned, where books and seals rained down like Mana from heaven on all the filthy casuals. I chose to go see a movie isntead :D

That being said, my rhetoric hasn't been exactly full of rainbows and sunshine, so I can understand the jab.

We may not agree on this particular issue, Pie, but that doesn't mean I dont' think you're a kickass person :)

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:55 am 
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The jab was intended to smack you in the face because you went off on a rant about how I'm crying, flipping my shit and trying to show off some sort of elusive epeen. I am not doing any of these things. I'm stating an opinion about a portion of the game that I believe is broken. I don't care overly much in actuality, I just think the entire process of grinding a dumb fate, getting your two hits in and running to the next to get higher tier gear is ridiculous, cheap and a cop out.

I think it should have been made just a wee bit trickier for people to catch up.

That is all.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:57 am 
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As for this crap. Being able to upgrade soldiery gear from hunts is BS! Although, I will accept the extra help even though we did not earn it from coil. That is all

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:49 pm 
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Iolanthe wrote:
The jab was intended to smack you in the face because you went off on a rant about how I'm crying, flipping my shit and trying to show off some sort of elusive epeen. I am not doing any of these things. I'm stating an opinion about a portion of the game that I believe is broken. I don't care overly much in actuality, I just think the entire process of grinding a dumb fate, getting your two hits in and running to the next to get higher tier gear is ridiculous, cheap and a cop out.

I think it should have been made just a wee bit trickier for people to catch up.

That is all.


Yah, my comments weren't really directed at you specifically. There's a been a ton of vitriol on the ffxiv subreddit, and then the conversation that took place in /fc yesterday. My comments were more just upon the general argument that everyone gives of,

"It's not about e-peen, but I also feel you don't deserve this equipment."

I just think those two statements are mutually exclusive. If it wasn't about it, then in theory, it wouldn't really matter what other people were wearing. That's just where I get confused with the statement.

But again, it wasn't a personal attack on you as a person. Because if we had to rank those in the FC willing to help others with mundane shit, you'd very likely be #1, or I could at least confidently say top 3-5, in case I'm just not paying super close attention. And I wouldn't put myself on that list, for what that's worth.

As for hunts, to play Devil's Advocate, while they definitely have altered the balance of things, shaken up the foundations and all that, they're not quite as bad of a lootspring, given that competition is involved, and buttloads of people are doing them.

To put things in perspective.
  • A: 1-2 hits on a B, A, or S-Ranked monster will net you 1 seal, at best. You need tons of Enmity to get max contribution, much like Odin. B and A rank monsters stay alive for about 5-10 seconds once they are pulled. Pulling party will, of course, get full credit, because the monster is red to them.
  • B: Because of A, there's very good incentive for pulling fast and sharing a location of a Hunt with your party first. "Premature Attackulation", is how it's affectionately referred, and it's the primary reason why you'll show up to a hunt after a monster is dead, even if its location is quickly reported to a "Hunt LS", because the LS will only be told after all of the scoutin party's members are in the zone and looking at the monster.
  • C: Because of B, it's imperitive that you get to a hunt fast. This means keeping track of the pop windows for around 15 different A-Ranked and S-Ranked hunt targets. That means you're not just sitting in your room, crafting your little heart away, see a message in the Hunt LS and meander you way over to North Shroud to pick up your 50 Allied Seals. No, instead you're spending your afternoon constantly running around a particular zone, looking for a monster in various nooks and crannies. You know it's been 3 hours since it spawned, but it spawns in a random location, and the only way to ensure you may get full credit is to try and be in the party that finds, and gathers, for it first.

So yah. Hunts don't require a lot of skill, but they do require a fair amount of time. If you want to be successful with them, you simply can't just be doing something else, hear a shout out, Teleport out to the zone solo, cast Stone II, and collect max seals. If you do get there in time, which is a big "If", since pretty much the entire server is currently trying to do them, and there's a huge incentive for being the person to Premature Attackulate the moster, then you'd only get one seal anyway, since you're not in a full party, and your Enmity contribution to the fight is basically nil.

Again, I'm not really trying to justify them, or anything. But just trying to shed some light on how they work.

It's obviously an easy way to obtain a Sand/Oil, or else you wouldn't see the amount of turnout that we are seeing at these Hunts. But if you're not using a Radar 3rd party app, the actual act of looking for them is a rather time-intensive endeavor. It also helps that you can, in theory, do as much of it as you want in a week, whereas you can only do Coil once a week, and even then, for a full run, you're only seeing two sands drop for 8 people to divide up somehow.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:57 pm 
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I dunno, it doesn't really matter. The difference between BiS and non-BiS is so minimal. As long as you have the required accuracy & HP, you're basically golden.

I think the point trying to be made was: even if you were clearing coil from the beginning you are unlikely to be finished needing sands, since 8 people need them and 2 drop if your clearing. So 3 month, 24 sands, 3 per person, if you will. As a Sch I'd still need two more. Swapping in potential coil drop would probably mean i'm finished gearing if I don't go for BiS.

But I will agree, everyone needs to have a way to enjoy the game and gear up. Not everyone like raiding or has time for it. Definitely seems like they intend it to be a mini-game type deal that helps people compliment their gear. I imagine they'd just upgrade the sands to whatever the next currency is.

Fun times.



From that post ^ is sounds painfully time consuming. Have fun! :p

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:22 pm 
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This is the internet generation damn it. I just want to hit a mob twice, have it explode in glorious michael bay style and have two chubby little angles drop down and hand me ilvl200 gear. :smug:


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Here's my thing with loot: It's kind of like a paycheck. I get told that to get a better paycheck, I have to meet X requirements. If, after working to meet those requirements, management just goes and gives a raise to everybody, I'm not going to be too happy. My effort feels like it was a waste of time. Especially when I see that the guy who browses reddit all day making more money than I am.

If you're doing the hardest challenges in the game, I think its fair to expect some kind of reward for it. But if I can get the same gear outside of raiding, that's not going to feel like a good reward. Call it epeen if you want, but if I can get this reward doing something else, why would I feel motivated to do the harder content? The reward for raiding should be proportional to the challenge, and since MMOs are primarly designed around loot progression, rewarding the best gear makes the most sense.

Now, I'm fine with slowly easing up the requirements so everyone can eventually get a chance to experience everything. And FFXIV does this faster than most of the MMOs I've seen, where raid content lasts a whole expansion. I have no problem with it.The problem with the hunts goes well beyond this though. The hunts basically devalue the rest of the game in its entirety.

First off, raiders were originally limited to a MAXIMUM of two sands a week for 8 people. That's a pretty heavy restriction. Because of this, I was actually happy when I heard it was going to be possible to obtain sands outside of coil. I thought a semi-rare drop in CT was perfect. But adding it to the hunts was well beyond just making it more available. They're basically turning on the fireman's hose and spraying everyone down with sands.

As I said before, I think its fair to say that people doing raid content are justified in expecting some kind of reward, even if that reward is just getting more of the loot that is available to everyone already. In other words, while sands doesn't need to be unique to raiding, you should be able to get more sands through raiding than not. Instead, SE has gone the opposite route and made it far easier to get raid gear through non-raiding means.

But this goes beyond raiding as well. The hunt has devalued all other content as well. To steal from a post on reddit on why people don't do Ramuh:
Quote:
Ramuh:
    Requires a lot of organization
    1 mistake on fear/thunderstorm mechanic leads to wipe
    DPS not playing optimally leads to wipe because normal setup has to be done with 4 DPS and most people were barely able to kill it with 6 DPS
    Tanks have to communicate well, one tank communication problem is a wipe
    Drops i100 rings, RARELY an i100 weapon

The Hunt
    requires no organization and no brainpower
    Just join a zerg and murder everything
    i110 rewards for any slot you want


There is literally no reason to do any other content, except to say you've done it. You can easily cap both myth and sold from just doing hunts. Dungeon loot was already fucked, but this just made it even worse. The Hunt is your one stop shop to get all the gear you need.

This shit has been in my head all day, so it probably doesn't even make sense any more. But at this point I need to fucking post it and be done with it.


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:53 pm 
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I agree with Cor. If you disagree with Cor, you're ignorant. That is all.


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:38 pm 
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I think Corwin's post is pretty fair.

And I want to keep this short, but I'll probably fail, however I mainly wanted to argue about the comment I had seen over and over in Reddit, in the FC, and even in the Hunt LS i'm in, Ironically enough.

"It's not about e-peen, but casual players don't deserve this."

It's totally about e-peen. But why shouldn't it be? You'll notice I never actually said wanting to get shit others can't, like a badge of honor, is bad. I'm the exact same way about things, just less so in games nowadays, 'cause I'm old and get sleepy at 9pm.

I was just wanting to argue the fact the statement above is like Grade 5 Retarded and can be counted with a one word response, "Why?" There's no way to backup the statement, so that was the basis of my point.

I totally think i115 weapons from coil are valid. I'd even go as far as to say the max version of the relic weapon for any iteration in the future should involve a drop from the last boss of the current hardest content. The relic quest is time-consuming, but I hope it never has a higher iLvl than anything else in the game, unless to reach that point, you need a material/item drop from Super Ultra Mega Boss XII.

I just wanted to point out that the comment above is retarded and the fact that the shit people are getting up in arms about happened 3 months later (and behind an additional "gate") than where we all were almost 11 months ago.

Trying to put things in perspective.

People who raid coil should have access to something better than what casual players have access to. Just be happy it took 3 months longer this time, and an additional wall, than it did in v2.0. As I said in a previous post, maybe next time they'll make it take even longer.

Just don't go around saying that it's not about the e-peen, because it is, and that's okay!

I know I have the tendency to get people riled up, and I think a healthy debate is fun to have, but hopefully I didn't piss anyone of, or insult anyone too much. It wasn't the intent.

And that's all I have to say about that <3

Edit: Oh, and about the Ramuh thing. Yah, that's fucking retarded. Hunts are stupid, yes. It's night and day the difference that they offer stuff. Perhaps a max amount of seals per week would have been a smart choice, but... And pretty much all sides of the debate have agreed on this point so far:

How S-E is handling their top-tier lockouts and gates is dumb. In the land of Animus and Unidentified Tomestones, and even Turn9 weapons, why exactly is Ramuh not dropping a weapon ever kill? And like Cor mentioned with the sand/oil of 2/week. That shit is all dumb.

IMHO, that's really what S-E needs to fix. If that shit wasn't as broken the way it is, you wouldn't have 4-5 FULL linkshells hunting mobs every day.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:20 am 
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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:26 am 
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It's Over!


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:11 am 
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Nobody said raiding is over. It will make things a little bit shitty when pugging members in static groups, though. Since people with higher gear levels will sneak in and suck and it won't be as obvious as the ninjas that swap gear to meet the ilvl requirement. Fuck the hunt, it's Nickelbacky irl.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:24 pm 
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i read the thread but feel a little lost about why the Hunt is good or bad, can anyone write me a tl;dr? even though i did read. is it giving noobs a fast path to leetness?

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:36 pm 
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Whisp wrote:
i read the thread but feel a little lost about why the Hunt is good or bad, can anyone write me a tl;dr? even though i did read. is it giving noobs a fast path to leetness?


TLDR: ppl mad cause they think hunts make it easy to get raid level gear.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:57 am 
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Whisp wrote:
i read the thread but feel a little lost about why the Hunt is good or bad, can anyone write me a tl;dr? even though i did read. is it giving noobs a fast path to leetness?


Players base requested that open world NMs re-emerge and also wanted something similar to the FF12 hunt board. SE delivers but made three mistakes that are upsetting a lot of players.

- The board works by giving you a list of possible NMs or other mobs you need to kill on either a daily or weekly basis. The weekly one gives more rewards. However, the entire server has the same exact target. Which means that the competition is too high and many players simply can't participate in this portion of the content.

- The NM's are ranked and the majority of them were designed for light parties. However you have the entire server zerg it at once which means it dies before it's even visible on screen (similar to Behemoth back in the day). SE patched a fix to up the HP but they only did so minimally. From light party to full party requirement. It's not nearly enough, and most nm's are dead before you even know it once again locking many players out of the content.

- The rewards are too good and there's no lockouts what so ever. As mentioned above you can buy items with your hunt tokens that was previously only available as a rare drop from coil 2.

(not really SE's fault but worth mentioning) Lastly, the NMs may pop at any random location on the map. Personally I think this a great idea to prevent botters and campers, and also it's sort of fun running around the map in search. However, many players started using 3rd party tools to cheat the system and are able to know when something pops and where. Because most NMs are designed for few players to fight they can kill it before anyone else even realizes it's popped. So this has really upset a lot of players since they simply just don't have a chance over someone who's using a cheat app. Because the rewards are too great, there's a huge motivation for this type of behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:40 pm 
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What a mess

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:15 am 
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Yah. The hunts are a mess. I'll still defend the sand/oil/tomestone (3 months later) position, at least for the most part. But I'm not participating in hunts anymore, since it's too much of a zerg fest.

I was pretty excited about getting the pets, and after getting bare minimum participation credit on the hunts I did make it to in time over the past few days, I basically said, "screw this", and I bought the expansions to Diablo III and Starcraft II. haha.

They should cap Allied Seals at 750/week. The daily Hunt log should reward 3/3/3/5/5 Allied Seals, and Frontlines should reward some, as well.

Hunts, as they stand right now, are basically in the hands of 3rd party app users. I had no idea that hunts were just going to always be targettable nomatter what, when they first mentioned the idea of Hunts. I'd have figured that everyone would get random monsters named, and all those with that name, or at least all those in a party with someone with that name, would then team up and take it down.

Having the shit just roam around, letting everyon pos hack to is a pretty piss-poor implementation of this system.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on "The Hunt"
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:32 am 
Meat Miq'abob
Meat Miq'abob
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Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:29 pm
Posts: 1461
Whats worst is the fact that people not doing hunts get harrased by the roaming hunt groups, because they accidently targeted a hunt mob or got accused of it while they are trying to do map quests! rideres experience sours me on the whole situation. I'll wait till the hunts die down a little and do it 3 months from now :P

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