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 Post subject: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:08 am 
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So!

Do you all think that this game will keep more with the FFXI approach to gear (Where there were various sets you could get, but ultimately that one piece you got a long time ago still was situationally useful), or do you think it'll go with the WoW approach (Where you basically have to replace your whole gear set with each new content update).

I have a confession, I got super addicted to the new gathering system, which leads to an interest in crafting. But if I do that during phase 4/launch, I'm a bit worried about being completely left behind by all you folks who are mainly interested in dungeon grinding and such. haha

I know it's all speculation at this point, but I'm just curious your thoughts? Stupid S-E making me like their new gathering system :(

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:28 am 
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I think we have enough people who are at different stages of the game that no one will be left behind. Even the folks who are furthest along may still decide to first gather or craft and take advantage of the unstable market rather than go spelunking.

As for the approach to gear, I don't know. I would guess that they will do what SE usually does, make it such that you can do a lil more questing to upgrade the stuff you already have.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:57 am 
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Don't worry ridere I'll be starting at lvl 1 so you'll have a couple months before being surpassed. less if I poop sock it, but that seems unlikely to occur.

I have 0 evidence and actually don't know shit about 1.0 but I expect SE to do something similar (but hopefully better) to what Tera does. In that new sets are marginally better than previous sets and come out say about as frequently as new WoW sets, but the truly great gear needs to be enchanted ( or whatever its called) and doing so to the max is very expensive/time consuming, so a maxed out old item will be significantly better than a mid tier enchanted new item.

Also I think SE has a hard on for speciality sets like 1 set for cooking 1 set for gathering cooking ingredients and shit. And the armory system definitely says to me they want you to keep old gear. Sure some of that is to cover job switching but I think its would be smart on SEs part to introduce new gear every 4-6 months in line with what I said before. Keeps the hardcore folks happy min/maxing new sets and casual players can slowly upgrade whatever piece they picked up and stay relevant.

But again that's just my opinion. I wouldn't actually mind if all the gear has the same stats just different distributions so long as it looked cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:49 am 
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Yah. I figure I'll just play the game how I want to play the game. I just remember really enjoying FFXI, because I was able to fish and craft and such, but completely skip Dynamis after the first few runs of it. When we did Sky/Sea stuff, I was still able to contribute positively, however.

I'll just be in like the 2nd wave of gear acquisition, or something. haha.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:58 am 
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As for gear, I have a feeling its going the wow route. Old gear will mostly be seen as fodder for materia. Yoshi I believe said he thought situational gear and gear swapping was interesting in xi, but too stessful for his casual take on xiv. I think the differences wont be as great as in wow though. Such as new gear might have an increase of 1stat value over something existing. So that hardcore players can feel slightly more hardcore by having it, but casuals wont feel pressured to persue it. As for leveling and dungeoning theyre kinda one in the same. keep in mind youll have all those billions of quests and people will be leveling archanist. youll grind inside of dungeons for xp, so youll be essentually doing both. you wont miss out. (ps: botany 4 life yo)


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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:58 am 
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I was hoping for situational gear... it opens up the game so much more imo. We had situational gear in 1.0, though it was a pain to use it compared to xi. I had macro's to swap gear out on BRD for singing songs and then swapping back to attack gear.


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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:09 pm 
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I think gear swapping in combat is bad/dumb. having 5 pieces of gear to mediate in, 4 instruments depending on songs. Swapping staves with each element. its all a bit much. When i think of situational gear i think of stuff like avoidance tanking Vs pure hp/mitigation tanking. or max DPS vs a DPS set that can survive a hit from the boss's AoE. Plus all the gathering/crafting sets, and maybe things like set bonuses that are good for soloing vs instances or what have you.

I don't mind swapping gear based on the events I am doing. but I won't miss have 3-6 lines of gear swapping on every spell cast at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:14 pm 
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It did feel bad ass having a full HQ set of staves, though. I remember getting those with my fishing money in 11, even though I was a WHM. haha. I had them, so I could swap them out with my /SMN sub and have free pets walking around, even if they were useless. :D

I did get my BLM to 51, just high enough to use them, before I quit, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:35 pm 
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i actually liked gear swapping a lot in xi. xi you usually only had one or twp classes you actually upkept, so it gave you a reason to always hunt new items for your class. such as, even though i farmed for weeks to get a gear set, this hat could give me one more damage with this weapon skill so i must have that also! xi was about being the best at your job by trying to be the best at each individual skill ability your job used through well crafted macros and an entire armoury dedicated to it. it was fun the have that constant maintainence and made you feel accomplished of you could. but as said before,xiv is far more casual. i sort of feel its less based on your technical understanding and maintaince of your role but instead more focused on how good your reaction timing and quick decision making skills are. neither is bad or good, just different. (sorry for poor grammar, on a cell phone)


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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:37 pm 
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hey ridere did you know in ff11 they recently added a staff that combines all the elemental staves? and its pretty cheap. +7 to inventory

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:04 pm 
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that's probably long overdue, Whisp. haha.

And, Kio. I think leveling up is way more casual-friendly in FF14, but if they outdate gear every content patch (Like WoW), that's not very casual. That's ultimately why I stopped playing WoW, because every 3 months, I'd have to get all my new gear back again.

Whereas you could have taken a 3 year break from FFXI, come back, and your Noble's Tunic would have still been good enough to get you back into the current end-game, so that you could get other gear.

We need enough carrots to keep us moving forward, but I don't like the idea of all each and every one of those delicious carrots we obtain going stale every 3 months.

Here's hoping that's not the case :D There's too many other jobs I want to level to be 100% gear-focused.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Wait what staff is that Whisp? I played for a couple weeks recently, and didn't see a single staff that replaced all.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:23 pm 
Youre a Crappy HNM like Roc or something
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Iridal Staff replaced all the Elemental staves. Chatoyant is the HQ.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Firstly, this is mostly rantings and speculation, so take it as you will. Got nothing better to do.

If there's one thing I thought was crazy about FFXI it was the side-grade and gear macro nonsense.

The simple concept of completely swapping your gear for every single action you performed was pretty crazy. Swapping your pants mid-fight? Well, I, uh, ok, but it's a game I guess, I can let that slide. But this could be taken to some pretty extreme levels.

People had to build up a complete set of armor just for gaining TP and another just for performing a WS. You could have gear for each WS due to each one being bound to particular stats, sets of gear for every spell element, resistant gear to swap to when bosses used a TP move, gear that's good for exping, gear that's more suited to bosses, gear to wear while it's flying, gear to wear while it's grounded, high evasion or defence gear if you pull hate. If you cared to gather it all, it was a LOT. The complete mess of an inventory you needed to carry all this stuff was pretty surreal.

The game was never even really designed for it either. You couldn't actually fit enough macro lines in a macro to do it, and it ended up needing around 2-3 macro slots per "set", and a whole bunch of presses to do each time unless you used third party tools to do it for you. Then there was blinking out of existence every time you did it; annoying for healers or anybody sub-healing melee characters, because the game would drop your target all the time. And then there's the fact most of the time it meant none of your WS or spell animations actually played. It broke the game in the literal sense.

Ok, so it kept older content relevant for years, but I'm not 100% certain this was the boon it seems.

Keeping content "relevant" is what made people still need to camp Nidhogg against you 4 years later. There was never anything "better" for further advanced linkshells to move on to; the same Japanese linkshell would turn up 4 years later to get the same old gear for their older members who had now levelled new jobs. You may have finally gotten a Ridill for every person in your shell who needed one, but if you ever invited a new member, or had an existing member level a new job, all of a sudden you were back to camping Nidhogg, or farming for Kirin, all over again.

I'm all for having multiple things to do at any one time, but in FFXI basically the entire game's 4 or so years of level 75 content had built up and it was all needed by somebody or other thanks to the fact that all gear was "relevant", but most people had already grinded it all to high hell in the past. Convincing people to come do Dynamis or Sky or Sea for a few weeks after they'd spent 1-2 years before grinding it was rather difficult.

FFXIV 2.0, and 1.0 actually if you paid enough attention, is obviously following the tiered progression route. Even back in 1.0 we had dungeons that were added, that were then completely eclipsed by new content and equipment added later. Garuda stuff added 4-5 months later was just plain better than Ifrit stuff, and none of the gear in Darkhold was worth bothering to get anymore by the time we reached endgame.

Every item in ARR now has an "item level" -- separate from it's equip requirement level. An easy way to tell that this gear is "better" than this one. It's not exact, obviously, because differences in stats will make different gear better for different things/classes/people. But if my grand company axe is level 60, and my Mogaxe is level 80, the Mogaxe is probably just plain better.

I'm not sure if this is what they intend, but I'd personally balance those numbers such that a level 10 item that is "Item Level 15" means that you probably need to consider replacing it once you reach level 15-16 or so, because your average common weapon at that level is now better.

With the tiered item progression, each linkshell, or company now I guess, sits at a particular stage of progression. The company as a whole is capable of beating Dungeon C, and therefore their gear is mostly C-tier, but this is because they already spent months grinding Dungeon A and Dungeon B in the past. Newer members, or older members with new jobs, can skip having to re-grind older content for gear they didn't need before but they need now by simply attending on their already geared class and Greed-ing items other people don't Need.

This doesn't mean that Dungeon A and B are completely obsolete though. Some people will go back and do it for fun, maybe with less members to see how far they can get. And there are of course also newer linkshells with lower members who will want to do that content for a while. Dzemael Darkhold and it's gear was pretty useless by the end of FFXIV 1.0, but that doesn't mean it wasn't fun to go back and beat the thing with only 4 people for the heck of it. Also went back and fought Ifrit a few times for fun, even though Moogle and Garuda weapons were superior in almost every way.

The difference is that we no longer have to go back and grind older content. We already grinded Dungeon B for 3 months, lets put it to rest. Go back to it in 12-18 months time when they add a hard mode or something.

So the downside is that some of that gear you spent months grinding for is now useless? Well that's not to say it was useless. That gear served as your stepping stone to the gear you have now. It wasn't just a waste of time. Minus a little skipping particular pieces here and there, you wouldn't have gotten the gear you have now without the gear you had before. You don't have to throw it away; go hang it up in your house as a testament to ages past.

As for crafted gear, I'm certain I've seen Yoshi say that he thinks that crafted gear should take somewhat of a backseat. Should it really be possible for people to craft gear that skips several tiers of content progression without ever completing any of that content? Why spend weeks trying to beat a dungeon for a cool new weapon, if you could just buy a better weapon from the market with zero effort?

What about members who fall behind? Not as much time to play, not as much luck with drops, perhaps join the game later, etc. Well I think this is what crafted gear and material is for. To help people supplement their gear or to catch up, so they can be useful when helping out on higher content.

The materia system is at least meant to be a way for people to catch up, or maybe supplement gear in slots they don't have dungeon gear yet for. You can even do multi-melding to push the limits of gear if you really have the money to burn. But gear now has stat caps based on it's item level, and from what I've heard it's not particularly high. Then you have to consider that the "risk" was nerfed; gear doesn't explode if you fail a meld anymore. So I don't think it sounds like multi-melding gear is going to be anywhere near as powerful as it was.

But lets not forget that FFXIV puts emphasis on skill over gear. Minus a few encounters (hi Ifrit Extreme), in the majority of 1.0 and what I've seen so far of 2.0, your success hinges on your party knowing what to do, when to do things, and where to be. Sure, gear helps, but even our motley group of slackers with very little materia gear was able to beat Garuda. Because that fight isn't about having awesome gear, it's about knowing the fight, knowing what to do, knowing what Garuda is going to do, and how to avoid it. Same with Ifrit, it's a very "active" fight, and all about knowing how to avoid his attacks, rather than having the gear required to beat it.

The Darkhold Ogre required you to know when to move to avoid little spawning ghosts, the demon at the end required you to know about standing on circles while dealing with adds. The Cyclops in AV required you to avoid his massive one-shot swinging attacks; the Chimera required you to know to move around and where to stand to avoid his breath and massive aoe attacks. In 2.0's lowbie dungeons I've already seen bosses with poison pools to avoid, electrified floors to get off of, items to touch to stop AoE damage, enemies that can only be damaged by leading them to other enemies, and the list goes on. Very few encounters simply require you to have decent enough gear and damage output to overcome massive HP regen, ala FFXI.

That's not to say gear doesn't help, of course gear is important. Better gear means faster kills, which means less time enduring attacks. The more the battle is dragged out, the harder it will be, but not completely insurmountable simply because your gear isn't up to snuff. The less times you need to deal with Garuda's clones, the better. But if a few of your members are slacking or behind on gear, it doesn't seem like FFXIV intends to completely lock you out of content.

As for when there are lots of tiers and it's possible to really fall far behind, that's when games are meant to have level cap increases. FFXI was stuck at a level 75 cap for a long-ass time, after only a single expansion, lasting through many expansions after it, which is really what made all of it's content swell up at that single side-grading level cap. Really, what they should do is add another 10 levels per expansion or something. The tiers then kind of "reset" each expansion, the old gear becomes obsolete, and it's possible to catch up by simply exping up to the new level cap. The dungeons are still useful as places to exp and for gear to use while you exp through those levels, of course, so it's not all wasted.

Everything is now a little casual, sure. But honestly, I'm not the player I once was. I can't dedicate every waking moment to the game now I'm older, even if I am able to leave the game logged in all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Well, I'm fine with your speculation, Ket. If that's how it turns out, then I'm cool with that. Replacing all your gear every new content patch kinda sucks, but I understand the reason for it. As long we don't end up leaving people behind. haha. But I suppose the idea of just being a bit of a leech on a few events with crafted/materia gear (or a tier set, or two, behind) is better than the idea of having to progress through Dungeon A and B to catch up with those doing C.

I guess the biggest fear is that I, like you said, am not the same gamer I was back in 2003. haha. But if we're all in that same boat, then maybe there's nothing to worry about :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:36 pm 
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I really enjoyed reading Ket's post. He nailed everything. And now I understand the item levels lol. And how multiple materia melds will work...I didn't realize each item would have a specific cap. That was getting out of hand where people with $$ could have the best gear out there. Sadly it caused me (and many others) to waste 10s of millions on something that is completely worthless now lol.

I cry a little when I see at how crappy all of my multi-melded gear is now.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:57 pm 
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ill take a group with great skill and mediocre gear over a great geared group that's brain dead anyday.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:32 pm 
Even Match
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Awesome post Ket! I like a lot of the ideas and hope it's what SE is planning to implement.


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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:23 pm 
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TBh the only real problem i have with ket/WoW-style gear progression style is that eventually artists run out of cool styles. Or maybe you just have a favorite. Thats why its almost inevitable that systems like wow's transmog or simple "appearance/costume" slots ( that have give no stats but cover your equiped items) are added,

Personally I'm okay with that since I think FFXIV has a lot of iconic sets and it would be a shame to never see them because they are 4 patches out of date, I also think it's fine not to have such a system right away (only a couple tiers anyway), but I can see it coming almost without fail.


Last edited by Vurin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Nice Ket I was thinking the same and Ridere think of it this way you would be the one we would be trying to catch up too after we hit max level and try our hand at leveling up our crafting, also I would help with your quest or dungeons as would any one in our guild

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Well said Ket, I think FF games have always had a good balance of gear and skill requirements to accomplish goals.

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:11 am 
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Hey look who is in the "most viewed linkshells" list!

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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Gear Grind Speculation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:03 pm 
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I kind of like how on Guild Wars 2, the gear doesn't really get better but it looks different. That way you have something to look for if you want to change how you look. But this also kind of defeats trying to get better gear.

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